Where the rainbow ends

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Wasn't the whole "don't you want to go where the rainbow ends" thing
something to do with the Noahide commandments?

Could be, but as usual with SK, that's only one rather interesting
possibility. I read it on the surface as most do I think: "Don't you
want to go to the pot of gold?" or "Don't you want to get in my honey
pot?" or "Don't you want to fuck me?"

Some may take the rainbow at its more obscure mythological connotations
having to do with the connection between heaven and earth etcetera.

Some others might take the homoerotic route since rainbows have come to
symbolize gay pride.

Of course the symbolic use of color throughout EWS can be signified by
the rainbow as well. In this sense it's a hint of sorts.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
They're often called the
rainbow laws. The 7 binding laws for all peoples, Jew and gentile.

I think it just refers to gentiles when you're talking rainbows.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
I
thought the rainbow symbolism had something to do with that, since the
movie is about a Jewish character who isn't really a Jew,

You mean like an ironic hearkening back to "Traumnovelle?" It makes
more sense for the character to be a gentile adhering to Noahide law
within the reference I think. One thing I have always failed to
understand is that if you accept the great deluge as fact on faith or
otherwise (as the big three religions do), then you and everybody else
in the world are descendants of Noah, the only living family spared and
left by God. By extension, doesn't that make everybody on earth
Jewish? We can all stop fighting now! Hallelujah, Hosanna, Yallah and
so forth.... Either that or every conflict on earth is actually a
civil war.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
this Tom
Cruise Bill harford guy, but attracted to Jewish interests, like Victor
Ziegler's world, and then pushed away from it at the end. Bill doesn't
want to go where the rainbow ends, he wants to go beyond that. A rabbi
is supposed to try to dissuade gentiles from converting.

That's true. Personally I respect non-proselytizers.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Better that
they believe in Scientology than become a false Jew.

Yeah a pseudo-religion created to sell books and make money and
brainwash its followers is much better.... yeah right. If you convert
without coersion, I think it's seen as a bit different. Of course the
whole point of following Noahide Laws as a gentile is to be seen as an
equal in enlightenment to the Jews. A righteous gentile of this ilk
has earned a place in the world to come according to the traditions.
You could spend a lifetime studying all the in and outs of this and
still get nowhere. Speaking of ins and outs, the first interpretation
is prolly the best one.

"My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So be it when I shall grow old,
Or let me die!"
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-11 23:43:51 UTC

To me it is quite clear that the references to rainbows mean to say
that Cruise/Harford is a closeted gay. To me, putting Tom Cruise in
situations in which he is gay bashed, in which he has the opportunity
to have sex with dozens of gorgeous women but refuses all of them, in
which gay people make a pass at him, is a clear indicator that EWS is
Cruise's "Coming Out" movie. A forced, sly coming out, that only a
smart director like Kubrick could make.

Forget about biblical stuff, that's absurd.

See
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/msg/b97915165cbe0cae?hl=en&

L.B.

ichorwhip wrote:

Yelps

2006-08-12 00:37:35 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
To me it is quite clear that the references to rainbows mean to say
that Cruise/Harford is a closeted gay. To me, putting Tom Cruise in
situations in which he is gay bashed, in which he has the opportunity
to have sex with dozens of gorgeous women but refuses all of them, in
which gay people make a pass at him, is a clear indicator that EWS is
Cruise's "Coming Out" movie. A forced, sly coming out, that only a
smart director like Kubrick could make.
Forget about biblical stuff, that's absurd.
See
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/msg/b97915165cbe0cae?hl=en&
L.B.

Although I can understand how you, a gay guy might assume the Rainbow in
this case is a reference to a Gay Theme, I think you are patently mistaken.
Bill most definatly wanted to ball those two models----he most certainly
wanted to ball Domino and he was Really wanting to go to that Orgy. I
think if SK really had this Gay theme as prominant as you suggest then there
would have been scenes in the film where he would have been uncomforatable
around some male in a way that gave one the idea that he was attracted to
him. Instead he seems to have revulsion for the Desk Clerk and the irony of
the Street harrasment--when he can't get these women out of his
mind--- --which is a fairly typical occurance for a good looking, baby
faced guy. If anything those street punks were exhibiting repressed gayness
in their insulting him as though anyone well-dressed has to be gay.

The bibical Rainbow thing has some bearing on it, because it was an Occult
symbol in relation to the freemasonry/Masonic thing/Cabala, /Antahkarana
(Rainbow bridge) thing associated with the Secret Socieity--Mind Control
hypnosis angle when the Symbol is used as a Hypnotic device.

SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the history
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.

Even before EWS was released, for years there were conspiracy nuts, calling
"Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of OZ" a hidden meaning refrring to these
so called Secret Socieities.

dc

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 00:45:47 UTC

How do you know this? Do you have any evidence to substantiate your
claim? I still think that Bill's "unmasking" at the orgy, and his "mask
on the marital bed" means he is a closet case. And I think I presented
a lot of evidence to prove it.

L.B.

Yelps wrote:
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the
history
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.

Yelps

2006-08-12 01:11:46 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
How do you know this? Do you have any evidence to substantiate your
claim? I still think that Bill's "unmasking" at the orgy, and his "mask
on the marital bed" means he is a closet case. And I think I presented
a lot of evidence to prove it.
L.B.
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the history
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.

I know it because for years starting first with the Robet A. Wilson,
"Immuniati trilogy" spoof books and then his later books and many others
about these Secret Socieities for entertainment purposes, and anyone who
has read all that KNOWS, that the Conspiracy kooks often use this to call
the "Wizard of OZ: movie, part of this Illuminati Conspiracy because of
the "Over the Rainbow" song.

And it is just plain logical that either SK was already attuned to all that
"Illuminati" ideation, which is probably the case since he was an avid
reader and researcher, or he read about the over the Rainbow routine when he
was preparing for EWS, since the Secret Socieity thing is so prominent in
EWS. and of course we also know he was into Jack the Ripper, from all the
Strangelove refences. and the idea that Jack the Ripper was a Freemason,
and he no doubt also being influenced by the film "Murder by Decree"
(starring James Mason as Watson) which also has its center piece in these
Secret Rituals held by rich people.

There is no way Sk pulled the whole secret society ritual out of the hat
without researching it amnd one cannot research that without running into
the "Over the Rainbow" thing and the idea that these groups used the
"Rainbow Bridge" as a Hypnotic Device for Mind Control.

http://mastermason.com/callendar588/html/sherlock_and_ripper.html
dc

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 01:22:29 UTC

Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.

:)

L.B.

Yelps wrote:
There is no way Sk pulled the whole secret society ritual out of the
hat
without researching it amnd one cannot research that without running
into
the "Over the Rainbow" thing and the idea that these groups used the
"Rainbow Bridge" as a Hypnotic Device for Mind Control.

Yelps

2006-08-12 01:43:01 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.
:)
L.B.

You must really be hung up on this being a gay movie. Bill was not gay., he
was a horney dude horney for chicks and still prudish enough to be trying
to stay faithful. I was married for many years I know the feeling. I also
had episodes of Gays coming onto me, like the Hotel Clerk, when I was
younger and prettier and when I had a young baby face and looked good like
Bill, every so often in my life some thugs would call me gay, when in
reality all I had in my mind were visions of slutty women in my head without
the slightest grain of attraction to males.

Honestly I am surprised you are so narrow minded in this area. There is
really no great mystery here. EWS has as a main centerpiece to the film,
Bill's encounter with this "Secret Society"

ALL the conspiracy kook, ideation and speculation about the "Secret
Societies" centers around "Illuminati" being a secret wing of the Freemasons
and the freemason believed in the Hiramic Legends, where the Great Secret
lies at the "END OF THE RAINBOW. CASE CLOSED.

"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets
before his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end
of the rainbow."

Now stop being a putz and study it. I DON"T believe the conspiracy kooks
and I'm sure SK didn't either, except maybe as Metaphor and as
ENTERTAINMENT, but that is not going to stop him from studying it and being
aware of the written background to the "Secret Soceity,
Illuminati/freemasion ideation, especially since he is MAKING a MOVIE about
it.

You are just investing to much of yourself in this "Bill is Gay" thing. Its
just not valid.

dc

Post by Lord Bullingdon
There is no way Sk pulled the whole secret society ritual out of the hat
without researching it amnd one cannot research that without running into
the "Over the Rainbow" thing and the idea that these groups used the
"Rainbow Bridge" as a Hypnotic Device for Mind Control.

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:57:58 UTC

Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.

Just read here at these unbiased websites:

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/16-03.html

:D

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.
:)
L.B.

You must really be hung up on this being a gay movie. Bill was not gay., he
was a horney dude horney for chicks and still prudish enough to be trying
to stay faithful. I was married for many years I know the feeling. I also
had episodes of Gays coming onto me, like the Hotel Clerk, when I was
younger and prettier and when I had a young baby face and looked good like
Bill, every so often in my life some thugs would call me gay, when in
reality all I had in my mind were visions of slutty women in my head without
the slightest grain of attraction to males.
Honestly I am surprised you are so narrow minded in this area. There is
really no great mystery here. EWS has as a main centerpiece to the film,
Bill's encounter with this "Secret Society"
ALL the conspiracy kook, ideation and speculation about the "Secret
Societies" centers around "Illuminati" being a secret wing of the Freemasons
and the freemason believed in the Hiramic Legends, where the Great Secret
lies at the "END OF THE RAINBOW. CASE CLOSED.
"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets
before his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end
of the rainbow."
Now stop being a putz and study it. I DON"T believe the conspiracy kooks
and I'm sure SK didn't either, except maybe as Metaphor and as
ENTERTAINMENT, but that is not going to stop him from studying it and being
aware of the written background to the "Secret Soceity,
Illuminati/freemasion ideation, especially since he is MAKING a MOVIE about
it.
You are just investing to much of yourself in this "Bill is Gay" thing. Its
just not valid.
dc

Yelps

2006-08-12 02:30:55 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.

Actually Matthew it goes back to Egypt before the Jews. Some Jews were into
Egyptian stuff and later Cabala stuff and other occult things, that the
Freemasons picked up on. It was Pre-Jew thing. The "Rainbow' thing in
Jewish ideation is comes from occult ideas, not Judism directly.

At any rate the foundation of Freemasonry is not the issue. The issue is
EWS and whether Bill was gay and the meaning of the phrase "End of the
Rainbow and Over the Rainbow," which LB emphatically connects with the Gay
Pride Rainbow Symbol. as though Sk wouldn't be totally conversant on Secret
Society ideation after making a movie that has a Secret Society as it's
centerpiece.

dc

Post by Matthew Dickinson
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/16-03.html
:D

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.
:)
L.B.

You must really be hung up on this being a gay movie. Bill was not gay., he
was a horney dude horney for chicks and still prudish enough to be trying
to stay faithful. I was married for many years I know the feeling. I
also
had episodes of Gays coming onto me, like the Hotel Clerk, when I was
younger and prettier and when I had a young baby face and looked good like
Bill, every so often in my life some thugs would call me gay, when in
reality all I had in my mind were visions of slutty women in my head without
the slightest grain of attraction to males.
Honestly I am surprised you are so narrow minded in this area. There is
really no great mystery here. EWS has as a main centerpiece to the film,
Bill's encounter with this "Secret Society"
ALL the conspiracy kook, ideation and speculation about the "Secret
Societies" centers around "Illuminati" being a secret wing of the Freemasons
and the freemason believed in the Hiramic Legends, where the Great Secret
lies at the "END OF THE RAINBOW. CASE CLOSED.
"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets
before his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end
of the rainbow."
Now stop being a putz and study it. I DON"T believe the conspiracy kooks
and I'm sure SK didn't either, except maybe as Metaphor and as
ENTERTAINMENT, but that is not going to stop him from studying it and being
aware of the written background to the "Secret Soceity,
Illuminati/freemasion ideation, especially since he is MAKING a MOVIE about
it.
You are just investing to much of yourself in this "Bill is Gay" thing.
Its
just not valid.
dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 03:39:47 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.

Actually Matthew it goes back to Egypt before the Jews. Some Jews were into
Egyptian stuff and later Cabala stuff and other occult things, that the
Freemasons picked up on. It was Pre-Jew thing. The "Rainbow' thing in
Jewish ideation is comes from occult ideas, not Judism directly.
At any rate the foundation of Freemasonry is not the issue. The issue is
EWS and whether Bill was gay and the meaning of the phrase "End of the
Rainbow and Over the Rainbow," which LB emphatically connects with the Gay
Pride Rainbow Symbol. as though Sk wouldn't be totally conversant on Secret
Society ideation after making a movie that has a Secret Society as it's
centerpiece.
dc

YOU telling ME what the issue is! I started this thread ya know!

Yelps

2006-08-12 06:25:53 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.

Actually Matthew it goes back to Egypt before the Jews. Some Jews were into
Egyptian stuff and later Cabala stuff and other occult things, that the
Freemasons picked up on. It was Pre-Jew thing. The "Rainbow' thing in
Jewish ideation is comes from occult ideas, not Judism directly.
At any rate the foundation of Freemasonry is not the issue. The issue is
EWS and whether Bill was gay and the meaning of the phrase "End of the
Rainbow and Over the Rainbow," which LB emphatically connects with the Gay
Pride Rainbow Symbol. as though Sk wouldn't be totally conversant on Secret
Society ideation after making a movie that has a Secret Society as it's
centerpiece.
dc

YOU telling ME what the issue is! I started this thread ya know!

I wasn't involved in the "EWS was a Jewish thing," part of the thread. I
already knew all about all that and the ideation underlying all of that
occult stuff wasn't Judism per se even though many of the Occultists were
"Jewish," by birth.

I was responding to the "issue," LB keeps raising about Bill being gay.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 06:28:15 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.

Actually Matthew it goes back to Egypt before the Jews. Some Jews were into
Egyptian stuff and later Cabala stuff and other occult things, that the
Freemasons picked up on. It was Pre-Jew thing. The "Rainbow' thing in
Jewish ideation is comes from occult ideas, not Judism directly.
At any rate the foundation of Freemasonry is not the issue. The issue is
EWS and whether Bill was gay and the meaning of the phrase "End of the
Rainbow and Over the Rainbow," which LB emphatically connects with the Gay
Pride Rainbow Symbol. as though Sk wouldn't be totally conversant on Secret
Society ideation after making a movie that has a Secret Society as it's
centerpiece.
dc

YOU telling ME what the issue is! I started this thread ya know!

I wasn't involved in the "EWS was a Jewish thing," part of the thread. I
already knew all about all that and the ideation underlying all of that
occult stuff wasn't Judism per se even though many of the Occultists were
"Jewish," by birth.
I was responding to the "issue," LB keeps raising about Bill being gay.
dc

I think Nick was the gay one.

Yelps

2006-08-12 02:32:42 UTC

By the way Matthew if you undertood the issues and their history, you would
not be calling that website "unbiased."
dc

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Ugh! would both of you stop sucking each other's pussies? It was the
Jews that invented Freemasonry all along ANYWAY.
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/16-03.html
:D

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.
:)
L.B.

You must really be hung up on this being a gay movie. Bill was not gay., he
was a horney dude horney for chicks and still prudish enough to be trying
to stay faithful. I was married for many years I know the feeling. I
also
had episodes of Gays coming onto me, like the Hotel Clerk, when I was
younger and prettier and when I had a young baby face and looked good like
Bill, every so often in my life some thugs would call me gay, when in
reality all I had in my mind were visions of slutty women in my head without
the slightest grain of attraction to males.
Honestly I am surprised you are so narrow minded in this area. There is
really no great mystery here. EWS has as a main centerpiece to the film,
Bill's encounter with this "Secret Society"
ALL the conspiracy kook, ideation and speculation about the "Secret
Societies" centers around "Illuminati" being a secret wing of the Freemasons
and the freemason believed in the Hiramic Legends, where the Great Secret
lies at the "END OF THE RAINBOW. CASE CLOSED.
"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets
before his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end
of the rainbow."
Now stop being a putz and study it. I DON"T believe the conspiracy kooks
and I'm sure SK didn't either, except maybe as Metaphor and as
ENTERTAINMENT, but that is not going to stop him from studying it and being
aware of the written background to the "Secret Soceity,
Illuminati/freemasion ideation, especially since he is MAKING a MOVIE about
it.
You are just investing to much of yourself in this "Bill is Gay" thing.
Its
just not valid.
dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 03:40:48 UTC

Post by Yelps
By the way Matthew if you undertood the issues and their history, you would
not be calling that website "unbiased."
dc

What should I read?

Yelps

2006-08-12 06:56:08 UTC

Post by Yelps
By the way Matthew if you undertood the issues and their history, you would
not be calling that website "unbiased."
dc

What should I read?

Way too many things, for somweone who needs to be doing things.

Read eveything here, and in it's bibliogrphies and discussions. it is really
a great website:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/ You can search the site on all of these
topics, Rainbows, Freemasons, Illuminati, Rosy cross etc.

Read and Study the history of the "Pyramid texts"

Keep in mind that there are many competing agendas in the "occult."

I hesitate to tell you other sources because you might start talking all
this too seriously.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 00:09:42 UTC

Post by Yelps
By the way Matthew if you undertood the issues and their history, you would
not be calling that website "unbiased."
dc

What should I read?

Way too many things, for somweone who needs to be doing things.
Read eveything here, and in it's bibliogrphies and discussions. it is really
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/ You can search the site on all of these
topics, Rainbows, Freemasons, Illuminati, Rosy cross etc.
Read and Study the history of the "Pyramid texts"
Keep in mind that there are many competing agendas in the "occult."
I hesitate to tell you other sources because you might start talking all
this too seriously.
dc

Haven't been taking any of this seriously so far! But thanks for the
link.

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:58:15 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Your ideas are like those of a drunken or spaced Matthew
Dickinson.....he has been surpassed.
:)
L.B.

You must really be hung up on this being a gay movie. Bill was not gay., he
was a horney dude horney for chicks and still prudish enough to be trying
to stay faithful. I was married for many years I know the feeling. I also
had episodes of Gays coming onto me, like the Hotel Clerk, when I was
younger and prettier and when I had a young baby face and looked good like
Bill, every so often in my life some thugs would call me gay, when in
reality all I had in my mind were visions of slutty women in my head without
the slightest grain of attraction to males.
Honestly I am surprised you are so narrow minded in this area. There is
really no great mystery here. EWS has as a main centerpiece to the film,
Bill's encounter with this "Secret Society"
ALL the conspiracy kook, ideation and speculation about the "Secret
Societies" centers around "Illuminati" being a secret wing of the Freemasons
and the freemason believed in the Hiramic Legends, where the Great Secret
lies at the "END OF THE RAINBOW. CASE CLOSED.
"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets
before his children, a will o' the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end
of the rainbow."
Now stop being a putz and study it. I DON"T believe the conspiracy kooks
and I'm sure SK didn't either, except maybe as Metaphor and as
ENTERTAINMENT, but that is not going to stop him from studying it and being
aware of the written background to the "Secret Soceity,
Illuminati/freemasion ideation, especially since he is MAKING a MOVIE about
it.
You are just investing to much of yourself in this "Bill is Gay" thing. Its
just not valid.
dc

Yelps

2006-08-12 01:23:12 UTC

If you read the last web page I posted in last post about Murder by decree
and Jack the Ripper, which mentions "Hiramic Legend" now read this and
notice where it mentions the rainbow reference:

"The great secret, the unknowability which the Great Architect sets before
his children, a will o the wisp to follow, a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow. "

dc

FREEMASONRYS ANSWER TO JOB
SHORT TALK BULLETIN
Vol.IX October, 1931 No.10
If a man die, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14)
Freemasonry has been called a religion which can be all things to all men.
Many dispute the statement that Freemasonry is a religion at all, on the
theory that a religion is a specified manner of worship, whereas Freemasonry
has neither creed nor dogma. Freemasonry is much more properly religion than
a religion.
Freemasonry may, indeed, be all things religious to all men. Each may take
from it, each may read into it, any creed or dogma which fits his personal
religious belief - and find his faith fits with the teachings of the gentle
Craft.
For be a mans faith what it may, it must be founded on the rock of a belief
in Deity and a faith in a future life. Here, indeed, Freemasonry touches
hands with religion and sees eye to eye with all beliefs. The Master Masons
Degree, the Hiramic Legend, the Search For That Which Was Lost and the Sprig
of Acacia all answer the cry of Job with comfort and assurance.
Pull the flower to pieces; remain the petals, a perfume, but no rose. Play
the symphony, isolate note by note; sound is heard, but no music.
Every word Milton wrote is in the dictionary; but great poems may not be
found there.
So of any written account of this degree; we may write of its symbols,
analyze its legend, tell of its meaning, but we pronounce but words without
rhyme, make a flower of wax, a song muted. The best we may do is to point
out a path to the high mountain of spiritual experience which is the Sublime
Degree, that he who climbs may see it with a new view - and clearer eyes.
To the universal and yearning hope of all mankind throughout all ages
Freemasonry answers; there is a hope of immortality; there is a Great
Architect by whose mercy we may live again, leaving to each brother his
choice of interpretation by which he may read the Great Beyond.
The Third Degree teaches of the power- and the powerlessness - of evil. For
those who are happy to believe in the resurrection of the physical body, the
Sublime degree has comfort. For those whose hope is in the raising only of
that spiritual body of which Paul taught, the degree assures of all the
longing heart can wish.
When the greatest hope and the dearest wish of all mankind is made manifest,
the Sublime Degree turns to this life and this brotherhood, and ties
together the Hiramic Legend and daily living in a manner which no thoughtful
man may see and hear without a thrill; a way at once awe inspiring and
heartening; terrible and beautiful; sternly uncompromising yet strangely
comforting in that land of inner life, that home of the spirit, where each
man thinks the secret thoughts he tells never - never.
In his quiet hours, first among those matters unspoken is the age old
question of Job. When he sees his children growing up and realizes that he
is getting older, older and some day to be really old, he asks it. When he
stands beside the coffin of his departed brother to cast into the open grave
the Sprig of Acacia he asks it again, sometimes not knowing that the very
act which gives rise to the question is Freemasonrys answer.
Acacia was a symbol of immortality before Freemasonry existed. It is the
shittim wood of the Old Testament, the erica or tamarisk at the foot of
which the body of the dead Osiris was cast ashore so that, when found, it
would rise again.
The Jews have always considered shittim a sacred wood; a symbol of life.
Logs used in houses sprouted long after the tree was destroyed that the beam
might be made from it. Shittim wood was used to construct the table for the
shew bread, the tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the sacred furniture of
the Temple. Everyone was familiar with the evergreen which does not seem to
die in cold weather, as do less hardy trees which shed their leaves and
sleep through the winter.
But if Freemasonry did not make Acacia a symbol, the Craft adopted it as
symbolic of our own special Rite and beliefs.
Acacia marked the spot where lay all that was mortal of the Widows Son. The
Hiramic Legend is of an immortality which was made manifest in the very
shade of acacia; how should the plant not stand for the most blessed hope
of man?
In the stately prayer in the Masters degree we hear for there is hope of a
tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again - . Later we learn of
man who cometh forth as a flower and is cut down, by the scythe of time
which gathers him to the land where his fathers have gone before him.
Where is that land?
Uncounted millions have asked. Freemasonrys reply is, that glorious
immortality symbolized by the acacia, its reality attested by every hope of
every man born of woman since the first infant cried its birth cry.
The Sprig of acacia has another and equally beautiful implication besides
that of the certainty of spiritual survival. Faith is the substance of
things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The Sprig of Acacia is
not only the emblem of a future life, but of faith.
It matters little what faith that is. It is the existence of some faith
which is important; the certainty of things not seen. The Masons may be a
Methodist, Baptist, Spiritualist, Evolutionist, Unitarian. Trinitarian,
Mohammedan or Brahmin. He may believe in an orthodox heaven of Golden
Streets and Milk and Honey; his faith may send him to a whole realm of seven
planets which he may visit in turn with esoteric Buddist; he may believe in
the succession of planes of Spiritualism or the Nirvana of the Orient - the
Sprig of Acacia is at once a symbol of the immortality taught by his faith,
and of the faith itself.
One cannot prove immortality any more than one can prove God. Proof is the
result of logic , and logic is a process of the mind. Faith is the product
of a process of the heart. We cannot reason ourselves into or of love; we
cannot reason ourselves into or out of faith.
The Sprig of Acacia proves nothing - nor does it try to. It means everything
to him who has the faith. It is Freemasonrys attestation to her children
and to the world that brethren drop their tears on the body of the deceased
brother in full faith that - where nor how we presume not to say, leaving it
wholly to the eye which Sees the Everlasting Arms which enfold - he, even as
we, shall live again. He knows past all forgetting because he has learned
the lesson of the Hiramic Legend.
Learned students have attempted to fix the date -as if dates mattered! -
when that story first made its appearance in Freemasonry. Their conclusions
are more negative than positive, and none have gone behind the fact that in
one form or another the Hiramic Legend is among the oldest as it is among
the dearest myths of the race. One may agree that documentary evidence does
not put the legend of the martyred master workman into the third degree
prior 1725, and still see in it the recasting of the race-old drama of mans
hope for immortality.
A dozen or more suggestions have been made by Masonic students as to what
it means. Some take the legend literally. Others believe it is another way
of telling the story of Isis and Osiris - itself a legend which could hardly
have been foisted full born from the brain of some clever priest, but must
have been a heritage from the Hyskos, or even earlier inhabitants of Egypt.
Some see it in a modern version of the death of Abel at the hands of Cain,
and of course thousands visualize it as the death and resurrection of the
Man of Galilee.
With such speculations the average Master Mason need have no concern. Nor
need his heart be troubled as to whether the drama is true or not.
Search the Great Light how we will, we find no account of the tragedy of
Hiram Abif. We learn of Hiram, or Huram. If we delve deeply enough in
Hebrew, we learn that modern scholarship translates Hiram Abif as Hiram, my
father meaning a Hiram looked up to, venerated, given a title of honor, as
the father of a tribe, the father of an art, the father of the sacred
vessels of the Temple. But of the three, the tragedy, and the Lost Word, the
Old Testament is silent. Nor can we find in secular history any account of
the drama of Hiram. For its truth we must seek into the myths and legends
and fairy stories in which the race has half concealed, half revealed, those
truths which do not bear telling in plain words.
Is there a Santa Claus? For Six Years Old there is.
For his elders Santa Claus is a means of telling a beautiful truth in terms
which Six Years Old can understand. Is the legend True? What is meant by
True? Historically Santa Claus nor Hiram Abif are true. But if true
means containing a Great Truth then both the myth of the Yule Tide Saint
and the legend of the Master Builder are true in the most real sense.
Raised to the Sublime Degree, many men see the drama of the Master only
literally, a teaching of the virtues of fortitude and inflexible fidelity.
For those whose ears hear only the melody and are deaf to harmonies, for
those whose eyes are so blinded by the sunset as not to see the colors, this
is good enough.
Yet, any liberal interpretation of the legend and our ceremony which
exemplifies it misses its heart.
The Legend of Hiram Abif is at once the tragedy and the hope of man. It is
the story of the resurrection of that which bears the nearest affinity to
that supreme intelligence which pervades all nature. It is the answer to
Job. It is at once the beginning of the sacred legend of That Which Was Lost
and the assurance that at long last he who seeks shall find.
Any man who has belief in a Great Architect and a hope of immortality may
see in it the assurance that death is but a pause, not an end; a gateway,
not a wall.
How long is a rope? A silly question! It can be measured,presumably, if one
can find one end and measure it to the other.
Suppose the rope has only one end! Sillier and sillier! But if true of a
rope, it is true of space, time and eternity. If time has a beginning, it
has an ending. If space commences somewhere, there is also will be its end
to be found. If eternity has a beginning it is not eternal!
Here is the shock, the surprise and the glory of the third degree. It
presents us with eternity in the midst of life. It pushes back the confines
of our little dimensions, our tiny measurements of time, our small
comprehension of space, and shows us that we enter eternity at neither birth
nor death. We have always been in eternity if we are in it at all. Hiram
Abif was gathered to his fathers when the selfishness and sin of misguided
men struck him down. But they were powerless against the Paw of the Lion and
the Power of Freemasonry. Each of us is born, lives his little life, and,
wearing his little white apron, is laid where our forefathers have gone
before us. The drama of the third degree assures us that the life from birth
to death, and including both, is but an episode, a single note in the great
symphony.
The Hiramic Legend is the glory of Freemasonry; the search for That Which
Was Lost in the glory of life.
We gaze through the microscope and telescope; and catch no sight of its
shadow. We travel in many lands and far and find it not. We listen to all
the words of all the tongues which all men have ever spoken and will speak -
the Lost Word is not heard. Were it but a Word, how easy to invent another!
But it is not a word, but The Word, The great secret, the unknowability
which the Great Architect sets before his children, a will o the wisp to
follow, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Never here is it to be
found, but the search for it is the reason for life.
The Sublime Degree teaches that, in another life, it may be found. That is
why it is the sublime degree!
- Source: Short Talk Bulletin - Oct. 1931
Masonic Service Association of North America

I know it because for years starting first with the Robet A. Wilson,
"Immuniati trilogy" spoof books and then his later books and many others
about these Secret Socieities for entertainment purposes, and anyone who
has read all that KNOWS, that the Conspiracy kooks often use this to call
the "Wizard of OZ: movie, part of this Illuminati Conspiracy because of
the "Over the Rainbow" song.
And it is just plain logical that either SK was already attuned to all
that "Illuminati" ideation, which is probably the case since he was an
avid reader and researcher, or he read about the over the Rainbow routine
when he was preparing for EWS, since the Secret Socieity thing is so
prominent in EWS. and of course we also know he was into Jack the Ripper,
from all the Strangelove refences. and the idea that Jack the Ripper was a
Freemason, and he no doubt also being influenced by the film "Murder by
Decree" (starring James Mason as Watson) which also has its center piece
in these Secret Rituals held by rich people.
There is no way Sk pulled the whole secret society ritual out of the hat
without researching it amnd one cannot research that without running into
the "Over the Rainbow" thing and the idea that these groups used the
"Rainbow Bridge" as a Hypnotic Device for Mind Control.
http://mastermason.com/callendar588/html/sherlock_and_ripper.html
dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:32:22 UTC

Bill's made fun of by the Harvard guys because they realize something's
off about him, he's in the wrong area at the wrong time of the night,
adn they just instinctual give him a little bullying. It's not about
gayness, that's just what gets under the skin. I can't remember how the
Schnitzler reads, but Fridolin is called a kike, and that was the
equivalent for getting under the skin. kubrick was right in telling
Raphael that it wasn't abotu the jewishness of Fridolin adn therefore
nothing to do with the gayness or whatever of Tom cruise/bill harford

Post by Yelps
The bibical Rainbow thing has some bearing on it, because it was an Occult
symbol in relation to the freemasonry/Masonic thing/Cabala, /Antahkarana
(Rainbow bridge) thing associated with the Secret Socieity--Mind Control
hypnosis angle when the Symbol is used as a Hypnotic device.

It's something like that!

Like this website
http://youreyeswideshut.com/

Post by Yelps
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the history
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.

Yeah the movie is definitely about that, but very obliquely, and as far
asi know there is not definite symbolism expressed (like the above
website suggests), unless I just don't get the retardo thinking of
freemasons and bohemian club members and skull and bones , these
people, unless i just don't understand how much they get off flashing
secret signs and symbols to the uninitiated.

Post by Yelps
Even before EWS was released, for years there were conspiracy nuts, calling
"Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of OZ" a hidden meaning refrring to these
so called Secret Socieities.

Alex Jones dressed up in EWS-style Venetian cult garb for one of the
protests against the Bohemian Grove in i think 1999. Of course that
movie came out on the same day that the Cremation of Care ceremony
takes place. July 16th. Pretty sure that;'s the same day. The middle of
july, anyway. I thought that was great how he dressed up liek that.

Post by Yelps
dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:40:46 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Alex Jones dressed up in EWS-style Venetian cult garb for one of the
protests against the Bohemian Grove in i think 1999. Of course that
movie came out on the same day that the Cremation of Care ceremony
takes place. July 16th. Pretty sure that;'s the same day. The middle of
july, anyway. I thought that was great how he dressed up liek that.

It also takes place in San Francisco, those ceremonies, and they do use
masked costumes for their show, which some call just a stage production
on the lake, and it has cheesy "evil" narration just like Red Cloak's
in EWS. Also, Harford is told "Why don't you go back to San Francisco
where you belong, man!"

Richard Nixon is on recording having called Bohemian Grove
(paraphrased): "the most faggoty goddamned place I've ever been to. I
wouldn't even shake hands with those people."

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:45:19 UTC

It also takes place in San Francisco, those ceremonies, and they do use
masked costumes for their show, which some call just a stage production
on the lake, and it has cheesy "evil" narration just like Red Cloak's
in EWS. Also, Harford is told "Why don't you go back to San Francisco
where you belong, man!"
Richard Nixon is on recording having called Bohemian Grove
(paraphrased): "the most faggoty goddamned place I've ever been to. I
wouldn't even shake hands with those people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_of_Care

I'm not sure how the hours work out, what is California, three hours
ahead or three hours back? But when Eyes Wide Shut was released, wasn't
it shown at midnight on July 15th? Same night, maybe the same hour as
the Cremation of Care ceremony of that year 1999. So the first
audiences of the movie were participating in that pagan sex ritual at
pretty much the same time as their elected leaders were in California.

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 01:48:42 UTC

It also takes place in San Francisco, those ceremonies, and they do use
masked costumes for their show, which some call just a stage production
on the lake, and it has cheesy "evil" narration just like Red Cloak's
in EWS. Also, Harford is told "Why don't you go back to San Francisco
where you belong, man!"
Richard Nixon is on recording having called Bohemian Grove
(paraphrased): "the most faggoty goddamned place I've ever been to. I
wouldn't even shake hands with those people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_of_Care
I'm not sure how the hours work out, what is California, three hours
ahead or three hours back? But when Eyes Wide Shut was released, wasn't
it shown at midnight on July 15th? Same night, maybe the same hour as
the Cremation of Care ceremony of that year 1999. So the first
audiences of the movie were participating in that pagan sex ritual at
pretty much the same time as their elected leaders were in California.

(I know I know, it's in Northern California, and what the Bohemians
watch it's a pagan SEX ritual, but it is this... weird production that
involves THE OWL OF MOLECH, from the Bible, which was the idol-stone
that pagans sacrificed their children to on a burning altar. I mean,
come on, do we really like knowing that Walter Cronkite and George Bush
and Jimmy Carter all sit and watch this crap?)

Bill Reid

2006-08-12 16:17:51 UTC

Post by Yelps
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the history
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.
Even before EWS was released, for years there were conspiracy nuts,

calling

Post by Yelps
"Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of OZ" a hidden meaning refrring to these
so called Secret Socieities.

"The Wizard of Oz" was originally written by Frank Baum as a
satirical allegory about the debate over the gold standard in the US
in the late 1800s/early 1900s.

Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" is a meditation on the transformation of
atavistic mammalian dominance/breeding rights behaviors into the rituals
of "modern" man, where dominance and breeding rights are now
determined by the amount of "money" (or "gold") a "man" has.

Every child knows there's a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow",
so both Kubrick and the guys who made the movie version of "The
Wizard of Oz" snuck in the reference as another little allusion to
the central theme of the respective works, although "The Wizard of
Oz" movie was really just made as children's entertainment (which
is what the "Oz" books evolved into) and not a political allegory.

---
William Ernest "I Hope This Settles That" Reid

Wordsmith

2006-08-12 17:43:59 UTC

Post by Yelps
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the

history

Post by Yelps
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.
Even before EWS was released, for years there were conspiracy nuts,

calling

Post by Yelps
"Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of OZ" a hidden meaning refrring to

these

Post by Yelps
so called Secret Socieities.

"The Wizard of Oz" was originally written by Frank Baum as a
satirical allegory about the debate over the gold standard in the US
in the late 1800s/early 1900s.
Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" is a meditation on the transformation of
atavistic mammalian dominance/breeding rights behaviors into the rituals
of "modern" man, where dominance and breeding rights are now
determined by the amount of "money" (or "gold") a "man" has.
Every child knows there's a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow",
so both Kubrick and the guys who made the movie version of "The
Wizard of Oz" snuck in the reference as another little allusion to
the central theme of the respective works, although "The Wizard of
Oz" movie was really just made as children's entertainment (which
is what the "Oz" books evolved into) and not a political allegory.
---
William Ernest "I Hope This Settles That" Reid

Who told you that...Alex Jones?

W ; )

Yelps

2006-08-12 19:23:17 UTC

Post by Bill Reid

Post by Bill Reid
"The Wizard of Oz" was originally written by Frank Baum as a

satirical allegory about the debate over the gold standard in the US
in the late 1800s/early 1900s.
Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" is a meditation on the transformation of
atavistic mammalian dominance/breeding rights behaviors into the rituals
of "modern" man, where dominance and breeding rights are now
determined by the amount of "money" (or "gold") a "man" has.
Every child knows there's a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow",
so both Kubrick and the guys who made the movie version of "The
Wizard of Oz" snuck in the reference as another little allusion to
the central theme of the respective works, although "The Wizard of
Oz" movie was really just made as children's entertainment (which
is what the "Oz" books evolved into) and not a political allegory.
---

If one were to remove from EWS the entire "Secret Society" segments, ritual
and content then it would make sense that SK's had simply borrowed the
Phrases, "Over the Rainbow," or "Where the Rainbow Ends," from "Wizard of
Oz" and the old children stories about "finding the gold at the end of the
Rainbow," but since the main centerpiece of the film IS Bill encountering
the Secret Society, rituals etc, which anyone who researches "Secret
Socieities" knows, that this "Illuminati etc.." ideation claims that the
"Secret Socieities," have a basis in occult traditions and even the word
"gold at the end of the rainbow," would relate to the alchemical
"transmutation," of elements into "gold" and the "rainbow" refers to the old
use of the "Rainbow bridge," which had an origin in very ancient tradtions
relating to this transformation of consciousness or inner transmutation to
create inner "gold."

Because EWS, depicts such a "Secret Socieity" and since Sk would no doubt
have research every aspect of these Secret Socieities, it is sensible to
assume that he was bringing in the esoteric meanings of the phrases "Where
the Rainbow Ends," and "Over the Rainbow," as they appear fron the
alchemical traditions, which supposedly is the background occult traditions
followed by these so-called "Secret Socieities."

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 00:04:23 UTC

Post by Bill Reid

Post by Bill Reid
"The Wizard of Oz" was originally written by Frank Baum as a

If one were to remove from EWS the entire "Secret Society" segments, ritual
and content then it would make sense that SK's had simply borrowed the
Phrases, "Over the Rainbow," or "Where the Rainbow Ends," from "Wizard of
Oz" and the old children stories about "finding the gold at the end of the
Rainbow," but since the main centerpiece of the film IS Bill encountering
the Secret Society, rituals etc, which anyone who researches "Secret
Socieities" knows, that this "Illuminati etc.." ideation claims that the
"Secret Socieities," have a basis in occult traditions and even the word
"gold at the end of the rainbow," would relate to the alchemical
"transmutation," of elements into "gold" and the "rainbow" refers to the old
use of the "Rainbow bridge," which had an origin in very ancient tradtions
relating to this transformation of consciousness or inner transmutation to
create inner "gold."
Because EWS, depicts such a "Secret Socieity" and since Sk would no doubt
have research every aspect of these Secret Socieities, it is sensible to
assume that he was bringing in the esoteric meanings of the phrases "Where
the Rainbow Ends," and "Over the Rainbow," as they appear fron the
alchemical traditions, which supposedly is the background occult traditions
followed by these so-called "Secret Socieities."
dc

I think you're right. He no doubt read Jung's writings on alchemy, too.

Bill Reid

2006-08-16 00:59:04 UTC

Post by Wordsmith

Post by Yelps
SK picked up that phrase "Over the Rainbow," just by researchng the

history

Post by Yelps
of Secret Societies in preparation for the film.
Even before EWS was released, for years there were conspiracy nuts,

calling

Post by Yelps
"Over the Rainbow" from the Wizard of OZ" a hidden meaning refrring to

these

Post by Yelps
so called Secret Socieities.

"The Wizard of Oz" was originally written by Frank Baum as a
satirical allegory about the debate over the gold standard in the US
in the late 1800s/early 1900s.
Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" is a meditation on the transformation of
atavistic mammalian dominance/breeding rights behaviors into the rituals
of "modern" man, where dominance and breeding rights are now
determined by the amount of "money" (or "gold") a "man" has.
Every child knows there's a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow",
so both Kubrick and the guys who made the movie version of "The
Wizard of Oz" snuck in the reference as another little allusion to
the central theme of the respective works, although "The Wizard of
Oz" movie was really just made as children's entertainment (which
is what the "Oz" books evolved into) and not a political allegory.

Who told you that...Alex Jones?

Actually Littlefield (the Professor Cocks of Frank L. Baum, except
about 8 bazillion times more convincing) for the "Oz" stuff, and the
"Eyes Wide Shut" stuff I just kind of made up out of my own rich
imagination...

---
William Ernest "They Call Me MR. Dix!!!" Reid

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 01:40:10 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
To me it is quite clear that the references to rainbows mean to say
that Cruise/Harford is a closeted gay.

Okay! Pack it in everybody, Pablo has decided! Really you can be very
intolerant of other views. I tried to lay out more than a few
possibilities, but you have ineffectively dismissed them because you
have a "hard on" for this gay theory, which I don't entirely discount
mind you. I think Kubrick was at least toying with gayness.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
To me, putting Tom Cruise in
situations in which he is gay bashed, in which he has the opportunity
to have sex with dozens of gorgeous women but refuses all of them,

Dozens? Are you exaggerating for dramatic effect? It seems to me that
Bill gets interrupted or circumstances prevail every time some tryst is
ever even about to be arranged or attempted. Was there a gay version of
EWS that I missed?

Post by Lord Bullingdon
in which gay people make a pass at him, is a clear indicator that EWS is
Cruise's "Coming Out" movie. A forced, sly coming out, that only a
smart director like Kubrick could make.

You know, I don't particularily care for Tom Cruise as a person mainly
because of his smug delusions having to do with Scientology and the
like, but I have never once followed for a second the whole "Tom is
gay!" parade. Now if I just wanted to piss Cruise off , since he
denies being gay, I'd try to be the Grand Marshal, but I require
something more substansial than petty rumors to build on. If he were
actually gay, don't you think some real evidence would have surfaced by
now? If he were really gay, don't you think that a guy as firm in his
convictions, however absurd they are, would have come out a long time
ago with no fear of reprisal? Coming out is pretty fashionable these
days. As much as Cruise loves the attention, I'm certain he would have
de-closeted even with the ex-wives and current zombie and child in tow.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Forget about biblical stuff, that's absurd.

I think you desperately want him to be gay for some reason, both Bill
and Tom. I'm not going to argue with you about the biblical stuff
since you've apparently made your mind up. What you ought to do is
remember Kubrick's constant ambiguities in his films and quit being so
intolerant of views that don't meet your agenda.

"Ok. Go ahead. Try and get the president of the United States on the
phone."
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 01:54:20 UTC

He is not a "practicing" gay man. He is a closet case. I don't believe
he has lovers, but I believe he has problems and that Kubrick put all
those references on purpose. I think the movie is mainly about "masks"
people use in their relationships, and in Cruise's case, he is masking
the truth about his sexuality.

And we do have some evidence: Cruise's own wife, Mimi Rogers, said that
he didn't want to have sex with her and that was the reason why the
marriage was over. Also, he wanted to be a priest when he was young.
Tom Cruise has serious issues, Ich.

I think this is quite clear and makes much more sense than the crazy
ideas about secret societies, jews, freeasons and whatever.

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/rogers%20split%20from%20a%20celibate%20cruise

L.B.

ichorwhip wrote:
I have never once followed for a second the whole "Tom is
gay!" parade. ......, but I require
something more substansial than petty rumors to build on. If he were
actually gay, don't you think some real evidence would have surfaced
by
now?

Yelps

2006-08-12 02:19:36 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
He is not a "practicing" gay man. He is a closet case. I don't believe
he has lovers, but I believe he has problems and that Kubrick put all
those references on purpose. I think the movie is mainly about "masks"
people use in their relationships, and in Cruise's case, he is masking
the truth about his sexuality.
And we do have some evidence: Cruise's own wife, Mimi Rogers, said that
he didn't want to have sex with her and that was the reason why the
marriage was over. Also, he wanted to be a priest when he was young.
Tom Cruise has serious issues, Ich.

You are Gay, you apparently, do not really understand that being MARRIED
can do THAT to a straight guy, especially if you are a guy that can get most
any woman. Its real easy to stop being drawn to having sex with your wife,
when you are surrounded by fresh meat that are hitting on you. It becomes
old hat...in this case above, Old Mimi. Doesn't mean the guy is "gay"
because he loses interest in having sex with his wife. c'mon.

Your thoughts about how 'crazy' the "secret societies" angle in a movie that
has as a centerpiece a "Secret Society," made by a diector we all know
researches everything to the maximun as thoguh he wouldn't have picked up
"over thr rainbow' from his reseach is frankly absurd.

Here we have a film with a bunch of weird mysterious coincidences that
mention the Rainbow and phrases used by the Freemasons ie., "Over the
Rainbow." and "at the End of the Rainbow," as I already showed as coming
directly from the Hiramaic legends at the root of freemasonry.

Frankly you are being blinded, by your own sexuality and desire to make Bill
(and Tom) gay. Somehow you are completly oblivious to the reality that EWS
is much about the Secret Society ideations as a fable.

dc

Post by Lord Bullingdon
I think this is quite clear and makes much more sense than the crazy
ideas about secret societies, jews, freeasons and whatever.
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/rogers%20split%20from%20a%20celibate%20cruise
L.B.
I have never once followed for a second the whole "Tom is
gay!" parade. ......, but I require
something more substansial than petty rumors to build on. If he were
actually gay, don't you think some real evidence would have surfaced by
now?

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 02:40:30 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
He is not a "practicing" gay man. He is a closet case.

I guess you'll never be able to prove that until you get inside Tom...
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Lord Bullingdon
I don't believe
he has lovers, but I believe he has problems

I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,
and since when is that a problem anyways?

Post by Lord Bullingdon
and that Kubrick put all
those references on purpose. I think the movie is mainly about "masks"
people use in their relationships, and in Cruise's case, he is masking
the truth about his sexuality.

So you think that hardheaded Tom would have allowed Kubrick to depict
him in that way? I think he would have thrown a royal fit and jumped
all over Kubrick's director's chair and yanked on his beard etcetera.
Or maybe Tom was too stupid to see what Kubrick was doing. Really,
this is all just becoming more and more hysterically absurd.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
And we do have some evidence: Cruise's own wife, Mimi Rogers, said that
he didn't want to have sex with her and that was the reason why the
marriage was over.

That is not evidence! Maybe Mimi had some problems of her own.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Also, he wanted to be a priest when he was young.
Tom Cruise has serious issues, Ich.

So that must mean he wanted to molest male children then as well.....
That would fit your current pattern of logic. Anyways, he wanted to be
a monk if you believe the mummified Mimi...

Post by Lord Bullingdon
I think this is quite clear and makes much more sense than the crazy
ideas about secret societies, jews, freemasons and whatever.

Says you! I tell you I favored the straightforward "fuck me!"
interpretation of the rainbow line anyway. It being Kubrick however,
makes every line suspect of multiple, deeper meanings.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/rogers%20split%20from%20a%20celibate%20cruise

Sounds like a load of shit. Mimi has sour crepes! ContactMusic.cum,
the definite definitive source off all things specious...

"Now, where exactly are we going... exactly?"
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 03:24:26 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list. How can you be so sure he is not a closet case? Have
you seen his Oprah performance, when he tried to convince the audience
of how great his love for that actress was? Please watch his interview
at the Oprah show and then tell me your impressions.

Post by ichorwhip
So you think that hardheaded Tom would have allowed Kubrick to depict
him in that way? Or maybe Tom was too stupid to see what Kubrick was doing. Really,

Yes, this was possible because the references to homosexuality are as
sly as possible, so Cruise couldn't just complain to Kubrick that he
was being portrayed as a homosexual.Also, Cruise could not give up
after having signed the contract with Kubrick. He did not read the
script before signing the contract, please have this in mind!

Post by ichorwhip
Sounds like a load of shit. Mimi has sour crepes! ContactMusic.cum,
the definite definitive source off all things specious...

I could find thosands of sources for that statement from Mimi Rogers.
This was just the first that came from google. She really said that
about Tom.

L.B.

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 03:50:40 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

OBNOXIOUS! WHO CARES ABOUT TOM CRUISE'S INSTRUMENT. I WOULD RATHER TALK
ABOUT KUBRICK'S PENIS. WAS HE CIRCUMCISED OR WAS HE UNCUT? WOULD YOU
ALL PLEASE STOP RESPONDING TO MY THREADS THEN. I LIKED IT BETTER WHEN I
WAS GETTING NO RESPONSES WITH MY YOUTUBE AND YTMND LINKS. AT LEAST
THOSE WERE AMUSING. I POSTED THIS CRAP ABOUT NOAHIDES ON THE SPUR OF
THE MOMENT, I HAVEN'T EVEN WATCHED THAT MOVIE IN 2 YEARS, AND REGRETTED
IT AS SOON AS I PRESSED POST MESSAGE.

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 03:53:51 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

Shut up Matthew!

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 04:01:23 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

Shut up Matthew!

Here's one that's good

Although the lyrics are in Spanish here, they fit the theme of this
thread perfectly.

Yelps

2006-08-12 06:57:32 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

Settle down.

Not that big a deal. Its just discussion. Don't internalize it.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 10:00:54 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

Settle down.
Not that big a deal. Its just discussion. Don't internalize it.
dc

yeah dude

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 03:51:45 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I know for a fact he has problems, being gay just isn't one of them,

What are his problems then? Please tell me what you think his problems
are. Make a list.

I'll do no such thing Paulo. If anyone has the "burden of proof" here
it is you. What I will do is do what you usually do:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/browse_frm/thread/d30353b2f070905a/3408328d8b8e93d7?lnk=st&q=hop+on+the+couch&rnum=1&hl=en#3408328d8b8e93d7

Post by Lord Bullingdon
How can you be so sure he is not a closet case?

I can be just as sure that he's not as you can be that he is.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Have
you seen his Oprah performance, when he tried to convince the audience
of how great his love for that actress was? Please watch his interview
at the Oprah show and then tell me your impressions.

Yeah I saw it! It seemed staged because he was consciously trying to
quash all the untrue gay rumors. pfffffffffftttttt........ Sometimes he
can be a good actor, but that wasn't one of them. I've never seen him
in ANY interview where he didn't seem like the big fat smirking phony
that he is. Still proves nothing either way.

Post by ichorwhip
So you think that hardheaded Tom would have allowed Kubrick to depict
him in that way? Or maybe Tom was too stupid to see what Kubrick was doing. Really,

Yes, this was possible because the references to homosexuality are as
sly as possible,

I think the gaybashing incident on the street was anything other than
sly. Also Alan Cummings was a little less than subtle. Really, your
tactics are showing Paulo, give it up!

Post by Lord Bullingdon
so Cruise couldn't just complain to Kubrick that he
was being portrayed as a homosexual. Also, Cruise could not give up
after having signed the contract with Kubrick. He did not read the
script before signing the contract, please have this in mind!

I'm aware of that, but a star with his kind of clout could have caused
a lot of problems for Kubrick. He could have easily caused Kubrick to
just fire him, but Cruise had to have been appeased, and to this day I
have never heard him say anything negative at all about Kubrick. Maybe
you should write Cruise yourself about your little theory. Apparently
he has never heard of it.

Post by ichorwhip
Sounds like a load of shit. Mimi has sour crepes! ContactMusic.cum,
the definite definitive source off all things specious...

I could find thosands of sources for that statement from Mimi Rogers.
This was just the first that came from google. She really said that
about Tom.

I don't doubt she said that about Tom. He was prolly just sick of her.
I saw her recently on one of those celebrity poker tournaments. Damn
good player, but she has become.... quite hideous. She is also 5 or 6
years older than Cruise. I think she's just pissed that she couldn't
please him worth a goddam. I prolly would have left her too. Maybe
Tom looked into his Scientology magic 8-ball and saw that they would
become quite the uneven couple in the future. He traded her in on a
newer, hotter model. Who gives a shit? Where does she say he's gay?

"Fuck."
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 04:06:47 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Yes, this was possible because the references to homosexuality are as
sly as possible,

I think the gaybashing incident on the street was anything other than
sly. Also Alan Cummings was a little less than subtle. Really, your
tactics are showing Paulo, give it up!

What tactics? You guys are all paranoid about my motivations. I am just
trying to defend a point of view. Those two scenes are explicit but the
entire movie (see my old post) has sly references to show that
Harford/Cruise is a closet case. What can be more representative,
symbolic of a closet case than a mask on the marital bed, next to a
wife?

L.B.

"You will Kindly remove your mask"

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 04:17:38 UTC

Post by ichorwhip
I think the gaybashing incident on the street was anything other than
sly. Also Alan Cummings was a little less than subtle. Really, your
tactics are showing Paulo, give it up!

What tactics?

You said: "Yes, this was possible because the references to
homosexuality are as
sly as possible,"

And I showed that in at least two instances things weren't sly.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
You guys are all paranoid about my motivations.

Don't you "you guys" me.... What I've been trying to do here is have
you sufficiently prove your allegations and at the same time be more
tolerant of opposing views. You want Tom to be gay? Fine! He's gay!
HAPPY?

Post by Lord Bullingdon
I am just
trying to defend a point of view.

You were stretching things to defend a point of view. That's fine too!
HAPPY?

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Those two scenes are explicit but the
entire movie (see my old post) has sly references to show that
Harford/Cruise is a closet case. What can be more representative,
symbolic of a closet case than a mask on the marital bed, next to a
wife?

It doesn't necessarily prove your thesis Paulo. I will reread your
post tomorrow. I'm through for tonight. I'd prefer a give-and-take
discussion here, but if you insist on arguing we can do that too.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
L.B.
"You will Kindly remove your mask"

Okay, to be continued...

"We'll meet again..."
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-12 04:22:07 UTC

The old post is this:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/msg/b97915165cbe0cae?hl=en&

ichorwhip

2006-08-12 23:39:36 UTC

Lord Bullingdon wrote:

The old post is this:

I had to paste it in to this thread to "Fisk" it. (This also includes

I think that everybody here will agree that Dr. Bill Harford seems to
be a very repressed guy in Eyes Wide Shut...but to what extent, and
what is behind his repression?

Everything going fine up to here. Bill does seem to keep a lot to
himself. Damned introvert! Prolly why Alice is starting to get bored
with him, the self-centered prick.

I believe that Dr. Bill is a closeted homosexual,

You are a true believer! The main rebuttal/catchphrase from now on is
"Why does it have to be gay?"

that Kubrick had the intention of portraying him like that
(even if he didn't tell Cruise about it),

I'd give you that Kubrick toyed around with the idea, but I hardly
think closet gaiety is the central theme of EWS.

and I think that there are
many hints and reasons to prove this; some of these hints are obvious,
and some are very subtle. I will list them for you and then you can

I can ? Why thank you! The other you isn't so accommodating.

1) There are references in the movie to rainbows. We all know that
rainbow is the symbol of gay people. The "models" ask him to go
where the rainbow ends, he goes to Rainbow Fashions to get a costume.

I think we well enough covered the many colors of the rainbow. Does it
really mean just GAY?

2) When Milich comes to open the outside door of the shop to Dr. Bill,
there is a reflection of a neon sign, pointing directly to his crotch,
with the word "DINNER". Take another look at this scene and tell me
if I'm wrong.

That is there, and it's really a clever dirty joke. Milich has this
sort of "eat me" attitude after having been disturbed late by Dr. Dork.
I'd really like to hear Cruise comment on this. I'll bet it makes him
want to jump on a comfychair at least. I wonder if anybody has pointed
it out to him by now. I can imagine him thinking "fucker!" in regards
to Kubrick if he's noticed it. Could be that Kubrick was fucking with
Cruise for outbilling him on the ad campaign etcetera:
"CRUISE.....KIDMAN.....KUBRICK.....EAT ME."

3) When the mysterious woman says that "You cannot fool them for much
longer, you don't belong here" to Dr. Bill during the orgy scene,
the correct interpretation of this dialogue may be that Dr. Bill was
not true about his own desires, unlike the other members of the orgy;
he wasn't part of the group because he was a closet case. And
therefore he is condemned to take off his mask and reveal his true self
to everybody.

Or it could be that he's just not a member of the secret society.
Again, why does it have to be gay?

4)Milich seemed surprised when Dr. Harford asked for a cloak and a
mask. He then asks if he doesn't want something more "colorful",
like officers and pirates. He seems to think that colorful costumes of
officers (sailors, maybe) are more fitting to Bill...

But gay people love to wear cloaks and masks don't they? Anyway, I
think just about any costume request at that late hour would have
evoked a look of surprise from Milich. Praps he's a little alarmed by
the menacing nature of a black cloak and mask. Maybe he thinks he has
a vigilante in his midst. Guy Fawkes or Zorro anyone? both flamboyant
chaps they... Maybe he's worried about aiding and abetting a possible
felon posing as a doctor of all things. Jack the Ripper? Dr. Mengele?
Gaiety does not seem to be a requirement in any event. Milich
suggesting something more colorful might be Milich projecting his own
taste on Bill. Maybe Milich is gay.

5)When Dr. Bill decides not to have sex with the hooker, He asks himself
"Do I have to go?" and then decides he indeed has to go. But actually,
he had just talked to his wife and she would not expect him back in the
next two hours or so, which means he had plenty of time to spend with
lack of real interest perhaps?

Oh right........ If there had been a lack of interest he would have
never talked to her to begin with let alone discussed a price and what
not. His conscience got to him after Alice unwittingly "catches him
redhanded" and that's the primary motivation for his leaving. A
secondary shove out the door lingers under the surface, as fate will
have it, with him not being the next "Domino" to fall. Alice kind of
saves Bill's life with her timely phone call, although I find it hard
to imagine a doctor not having heavily protected sex when it came to a
prostitute rendezvous (something like a latex plastic glove dipped in
bleach jelly).

6)When Dr. Bill is outrageously propositioned by the gay hotel clerk,

It was not an "outrageous proposition.' The clerk never said something
like, "Let's play gay truckdrivers and swap loads." Now THAT's an
outrageous proposition. He flirts with Bill rather obviously, but
there is no proposition.

his reaction is not of indignation or laughter, or even indifference,
which would be the normal reactions of a straight person.

I don't think a straight person's reaction is that exclusive and
predictable. What are you trying to do here? Create a stereotype?

He gets
actually nervous and paralized. When the clerk says "To be entirely
honest, he looked a little scared",

Um.... A lot of passive heteros get scared when flirted with by gay
people. in response to this conjecture, maybe Bill was afraid of
misleading the guy, and being the non-aggressive type, he couldn't just
rudely brush him off. More likely, and related to the visible plot,
Bill was just worried about Nick. It requires no homo

it is like he is speaking about
Bill at that moment, not about Nightingale.

How about both?

Closet cases are typically
scared when confronted by another gay person.

I'd agree with that I guess,(it sounds derived from some other movie),
but that doesn't necessarily make it the gist of this scene. Maybe the
clerk was probing (gotta love that diction!) Bill to see if he'd found
true love. Dr. Bill is a handsome guy. What gay hotel desk clerk
wouldn't jump at the slightest chance to teabag him? You never catch
any fish lest you don't cast a line here and there. Bill was
definitely not biting. Why does that necessarily make him a
closet-case?

7)Dr. Bill doesn't feel even slightly jealous of his wife, not even
when she says she danced with someone who tried to seduce her and
wanted to have sex with her upstairs in Ziegler's mansion.

Yeah, and taking Alice for granted like that gets him into a lot of
trouble with her. She forces jealousy on him. He is what the ladies
call a "fucking jerk."

Actually,
from his reaction, he seemed excited by the idea ("just wanted to f__k
my wife?"). What kind of guy would have a wife like Nicole Kidman and
don't feel not even slightly jealous about her?

Maybe one with his eyes on a yet another newer model. Maybe an
introverted, conceited jerkoff too unimpassioned to give his trophy
wife any meaningful attention or devotion.

A gay one?

Possibly, but not exclusively.

8) It is also not clear if Dr. Bill gets angry or actually aroused by
imagining his wife having sex with the handsome sailor.This ambiguity
was actually detected by a few reviewers, including Ebert if I remember
correctly.

And what makes that gay? This one doesn't seem to need dismantling.

9)Dr. Bill strolls around the mansion while the orgy is taking place.
Have you noticed that he decides to stop in front of a peculiar
threesome? The woman is laying on the back of a guy, who is on all
fours, and the third guy is f__ing this curious ensemble, doggie style.

Well if it were three guys, maybe you'd have something.

This scene is indeed peculiar, almost gay in its setting. Why do you
think Dr. Bill stopped to see it, and not the others?

He prolly thought, "Hmmm, what the hell is this? The beast with three
backs?" Even if the "doggie" guy was alternating between the "on all
fours" guy's poophole and the woman in either of her holes, it doesn't
mean you HAVE to be gay to watch it. I'm not sure what you'd call such
an arrangement, but it would be for mature audiences only I'm sure.
Heteros get curious too.

10) In the first and most revealing scene of the movie, Alice asks Bill if
she looks good, and he says "Yes, Honey" without even looking at her.
When she complains, he says that "you always look so beautiful". This
scene shows that Alice does not entices Dr. Bill's libido as one would
expect. He doesn't care much about his wife's appearance, but he
gets aroused when other men want f__k her...very typical of a closet
case.

This is like a repeat of #8. Still don't see where it's part of the
absolute criteria for closet cases, if that criteria even exists.

11)When Dr. Bill is invited to have sex with the two gorgeous models in
Ziegler's party, instead of going at it eagerly, he asks "it depends
where that is", signaling he was not comfortable about
the idea.

Well this is flimsy. Here he is at a party with his wife somewhere
around, and Bill's not too comfortable with suddenly going off and
fucking two sexy women somewhere on the premises. Imagine that! Even
if he was a filthy unfaithful dog, which he is not inclined to be until
Alice puts the zap on him, he'd be extremely wary with the "old lady"
about.

12)When Dr. Bill enters Ziegler's bathroom, he sees another gorgeous
woman completely naked, but he seems to ignore her beauty,
instead he acts as a "professional doctor", and talks to the hooker in
tones of voice one normally uses when talking to children.

Just like a doctor! This is a totally lousy point here Paulo!

13) While stoned, Alice demonstrates quite clearly that she does not
approve Bill's reactions towards her. "Why haven't you ever been
jealous about me?"

He's a real dickhead for not paying her the kind of attention she
needs. He doesn't even bother to fake jealousy. Still doesn't have to
be because he's gay....

When people are stoned, they have moments of truth,

It only takes Alice a little buzz to blow her top, yes. Do you think
Alice thinks Bill is a closet case? Answer that.

and I think Alice went to the heart of the problem...maybe she
intimately knows why her husband is indifferent to her. He "wears a
mask" while in the marital bed!

That and he always wants to do it "Brokeback"-style.... Sheeeeeesh.

****

I forgot to add the most obvious scene that shows that Bill is gay: the
gay bashing scene.
L.B.
"Go back to S.F. where you belong, man"

A bunch of drunk and rowdy college punks are suddenly experts in
GAYDAR.

***

I think that's one interpretation of it. There are certainly pointers in
that direction, not least the casting of Cruise himself.

Sounds pretty charitable to your views, but note how he doesn't find it
exclusive. Hell, he even gives you the "Tom's a homo" rumor without a
fight.

Kubrick certainly liked to blend the casting of his films into film it's
self if you understand my meaning. TS (Jack) and FMJ (Lee Emery) are
good examples of casting 'for' type along with the husband and wife
pairing in EWS.
I think the story is about general repression/jealousy and covers pretty
much all the bases.

I do too including marriage in general and the dangers of becoming
complacent with such an arrangement. If you've ever been married, you
know what I'm talking about.

Bill is presented with a pretty wide smorgasboard in
that film and refuses them all initailly. You are forgetting that in the
second half of the film he returns looking for sex from those who have
offered it to him only to find something else (much like a bad dream)
that's really not in line with your speculations. Read into it what you
want to though - I'm sure Kubrick designed it that way.

He makes a good point here. I didn't see Bill going back for sex with
any desk clerks.

***

I think that's one interpretation of it. There are certainly pointers in
that direction, not least the casting of Cruise himself.
Kubrick certainly liked to blend the casting of his films into film it's
self if you understand my meaning. TS (Jack) and FMJ (Lee Emery) are
good examples of casting 'for' type along with the husband and wife
pairing in EWS.

I totally agree. I think there is this blend between character and
actor, and that it was done intentionally....and this is absolutely
amazing and fantastic and surprising, because the last thing that Tom
Cruise wants on earth is to be portrayed as a gay men in a movie. Maybe
that's why Kubrick had to be a bit "shy" in his hints.

But not all of them as you admitted. I still don't accept the closet
case scenario mind you.

Did you watch
that episode of South Park, "trapped in the Closet", about Tom Cruise

and Scientology? It is very interesting.

"Interesting"? It was just more cheapshots on his supposed sexual
preference. Maybe Matt and Trey want Tom to really be gay too. What
they really hate is Scientology.

I think the story is about general repression/jealousy and covers pretty
much all the bases. Bill is presented with a pretty wide smorgasboard in
that film and refuses them all initailly. You are forgetting that in the
second half of the film he returns looking for sex from those who have
offered it to him only to find something else (much like a bad dream)
that's really not in line with your speculations. Read into it what you
want to though - I'm sure Kubrick designed it that way.

Yes, Kubrick's films are always a bit ambiguous.

Then we don't have much to argue about then do we?

But the hints about Bill's sexuality are there.

Your "hints" have suffered more than a 50% discount. None of it HAS to
lead to a closetcase Bill.

And I don't think that the "offerings" of
little girls, hookers, dead bodies and so on go against my
interpretation. In his adventures, Bill gets into contact with many
facets of sexuality, but HIS OWN sexuality is more clearly defined by
the hints that I listed....although he is presented to the "wide
smorgasboard", the hints to his own desires are more specific. That's
what I believe, at least.

I think your views are tunneling from the fact that you are gay.
You're certainly entitled to them, but don't try to make them
exclusive. Your "hints" are lousy for the most part.

***

You are forgetting that in the second half of the film he returns looking for sex from those who have offered it to him only to find something else (much like a bad dream) > that's really not in line with your speculations

Ps: if you are referring to the second scene at Domino's house, when

he tries to have sex with her roommate, I believe that he was mainly
trying, in a futile way, to prove his masculinity, after being
challenged and unmasked during the orgy scene. The fact that he tried
to have sex with the girl doesn't mean he felt truly attracted to
her...at least that's how I see it!

Of course that's how you see it.

***

One more thing about the second scene at Domino's apartment: in the
original script, it is Domino's roomate who approaches Bill, and not
the other way around. Bill, therefore, does not look for sex there,
contrary to what you said and confirming all that I said. From the
Sally gives her another look and moves close to BILL, her towel robe
parting a little to show her naked underneath.
SALLY
Listen, I'm not sure what's was on your
mind but if it was more than cake,
there's nothing wrong with me.
BILL hesitates.
BILL
Look, I'd love to but some other time.
Okay? I was just passing by with the
cake.

So what? He had his mouth all set for Domino, and then he finds out
she has AIDS. Fucking some other strange gal would prolly not be high
on anyone's agenda after that.

***

And the last one, phew! I hope you appreciate me going through this in
detail. Prolly not. Prolly will just snip out whatever you don't
like, or whatever doesn't fit just like you normally do. That's not
paranoia Paulo. You just did it to me last night several times, but

There are two more pieces of evidence to prove that Dr. Bill Harford is
gay.

He's a closet case!! Quit changing the hypothesis!

The first is based on previous posts by Darth Nub and Dale

1>4)The movie seems to suggest that Bill and Nightingale were lovers

when they were at medical school. When Bill is with Nick in the bar,
they both ask each other if they have any connection to the Village
(gay area). Nick asked Bill; "Do you live in the Village"? Bill asked
Nick: "is your gig in the village?" This suggests that they were
checking out what the current sexual situation or choice is with each
other. Also, when the hotel desk clerk finds out that Bill knows Nick
he starts to be openly gay and makes a gay joke." Also, Ziegler calls
Nick a cocksucker when Bill and him are talking at the red pool table.

Maybe Nick is gay, or was.... Calling someone "cocksucker" fits pretty
well when you're extremely pissed at them.

It is clear from their body language at the Christmas party that they
were pretty intimate, and Kubrick created very suggestive dialogue for
-"I never understood why you walked away"
-"You know there is no way on earth that you're going to leave here
tonight without taking me with you"
These lines sound like things that lovers would say to each other,
right?

So now you're suggesting that they were lovers? So Bill was out of the
closet and went back in? I hope he remembered the mothballs.

15)The location Kubrick chose to film Bill and Nick's meeting is very
peculiar to say the least. He chose a transvestite bar in London.

So now what? Bill is a closet-transvestite?

You've jumped around a lot and pointed out more than few dubious albeit
interesting things. It seems certain to me that Kubrick was up to his
usual games. Maybe Tom wasn't aware what all, and maybe he's still not
aware. I suggest you try to contact him. Get a lawyer first.

Again, a totally non-"Bill-is-gay" or "Bill-is-coathanger"
interpretation of EWS
is just as valid (if not moreso because of your will to stretch the
facts and interpret everything with blinders on) as anything you can
cook up.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

"Hmmm, tell me something, those two girls at the party last night. Did
you, by any chance, happen to fuck them?"
i
"piop"

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-13 01:04:16 UTC

I agree with you that I can't prove it. I really can't. But I believe
Kubrick put Cruise in those situations on purpose. If Cruise knew that
the movie would have all those references to homosexuality, that he
would play such an ambiguous character, he would never have accepted
the part. To me, Dr. Bill has serious issues about his sexuality, and
his mask is a symbol of it.

At least accept the possibility, Ich, as you have accepted the
possibility of the secret society thing (which seems absurd to me)!

Thanks for reading all the stuff, I really appreciate it.

L.B.

ichorwhip

2006-08-13 01:14:04 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
I agree with you that I can't prove it. I really can't. But I believe
Kubrick put Cruise in those situations on purpose. If Cruise knew that
the movie would have all those references to homosexuality, that he
would play such an ambiguous character, he would never have accepted
the part. To me, Dr. Bill has serious issues about his sexuality, and
his mask is a symbol of it.
At least accept the possibility, Ich, as you have accepted the
possibility of the secret society thing (which seems absurd to me)!

It was never about me accepting the possibility Paulo. I am eternally
open-minded in these things as you should well know by now.

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Thanks for reading all the stuff, I really appreciate it.
L.B.

Yelps

2006-08-13 03:15:14 UTC

If Bill had walked into a gay orgy, and if Bill with the desk clerk, had
had even a slight sign of interest or hesitation, rather then the revulsion
he showed and had he had been seen secretly staring at men even for a
moment, or if he was seen having a revulsion for women, then what you are
saying could be true but what you are asking for, is for people to believe
that the hidden meanings and in fact the whole point (mask) in EWS was a
that Bill was a repressed Gay, when none of the above occured. Your chief
evidence which you named this thread "over the rainbow," has thousands of
years of history entertwined with the whole Secret Society ideation and only
a brief period in recent years as a gay pride logo and the "Secret Society"
par excellance is the most classic and amazing scene in the entire film.
Everythig before the scene leads up to it and everythign afterwards refers
back to it. "I'm not gonna tell you their names, but if I did, I don't
think you'd sleep so well"

What did occur, was Bill's avoidance or anxiety, over having sex with these
women he encountered, because he was MARRIED of course!---and one was
probably underage and one was fairly crazy and haggard. At the Secret
Ritual Orgy he knew he was an intruder but when choosen to partake he went
gladly, but then was warned he was in serious danger.

His behavior is well known to any straight male who is married and finds
himself being propositioned by hot women. I know that in my case I would
have (and did) acted very much the same as Bill did. I would have toyed
with the idea but not acted anything out with those models. I can't
honestly say I wouldn't have jumped Leelee Sobieski, who I probably would
have succumbed too--except that she was under age so I would have
controlled myself ---with the haggard and crazy Marion Nathanson, I would
have done the same as Bill and I may have ended up in Domino's room and
probably WOULD have gotten that same timely, phone call just in the nick of
time and then gone as limp as a noodle as Bill did out of guilt. Also I had
had similar discussions and stoned argument with my wife and I said much the
same things as Bill did when confronted by jealousy and a wifes questioning
and also when feeling jealous myself, because she had revealed some
fantasy, also remember walking the streets pissed off and finding myself in
close calls and compromising situations. None of this is unusual for
married people.

If SK had truly wanted to bas his film on Bill being a repressed gay he
would had had at least ONE scene that showed this. He would have made the
orgy scene a gay orgy cene and showed Bill as divided. Instead Bill's
mental crisis was because he was married, not because he was having secret
gay thoughts.

You are also acting as though the entire "Secret Socieity" motif is
incidental to the picture, when in fact it is the spotlighted centerpiece
of the picture, which takes Bill's mundane confusion and desires and
suddenly sweeps them aside and replaces them with a much bigger
problem---one that is more then just the troubles of the inner psyche,
jealousy and human sexuality, but one that overshadows the world--power and
wealth--dark mystic forces gathering in covens of occult rituals committing
ritual murder at the drop of a hat--or so claim the conspiracy theorists.
In itself the very idea of a secret underground of sinister people doing
sinister things and these people being the same people running the world is
an idea also imbedded in the mind of socieity just as deeply as anything
other fear of the unknown.

The title "Eyes Wide Shut" also also bears no relationship to Bill being a
repressed gay. That would be such a grandiose title for a story about a
closeted homosexual.

Instead the sleeping and dreaming about mundane worries and inner
ruminations over sex, desire, fidelity and jealousy are nothing, when
sitting next to the existence of a Secret Enclave of Satanic people running
the world!!!---even if meant only as a joke or metaphor that is merely
playing with this idea. Fear of the unknown and stumbling onto some
unthinkable plot ruling the world with Lovecraftian diabolism and reptilian
indifference about murder and a string of syncronicities and mysteries with
some hidden occult basis, all set up to blow Bill's mind while the most
powerful people in the world are free to indulge in the pleasures Bill is
unable to partake in and seemingly controlled events, mind controlled
slaves, is far more appropriate for a title like Eyes Wide Shut.

And Alice thinks she has the solution, just for them to just Fuck soon and
her silly little double talk at the end. Considering what Bill just saw,
Their eyes were still Wide Shut if all she can come up with after all that,
was just to jump right back into the mundane world of husbands and wives
fucking to solve their selfish, little petty issues.

NO. SK has much more going on in EWS then trying to turn Bill into a gay
man.....way to mundane an idea!! Sorry a D- on that hypothesis.

At any rate I think I'll watch the damn thing right now. Such a great film.

One last thought.....SK may have very well believed in the conspiracy
theories to some extent. Can't rule that out. He may have EVEN had direct
evidence of secret conclaves , being a famous person living in the UK.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 04:16:56 UTC

Well said.

MickeyMoop

2013-03-04 15:22:11 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Well said.

Roman Vishniac. The rest is commentary.

kelpzoidzl

2013-03-06 05:15:40 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Well said.

Roman Vishniac. The rest is commentary.

The rest is condom territory

MickeyMoop

2013-03-07 15:16:57 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Well said.

Roman Vishniac.

The rest is condom territory

STOP THE MUSIC - ERMEY is whu's step-uncle?

kelpzoidzl

2013-03-07 21:25:29 UTC

Post by MickeyMoop

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Well said.

Roman Vishniac.

The rest is condom territory

STOP THE MUSIC - ERMEY is whu's step-uncle?

BOYCOTT GEICO.

MickeyMoop

2013-03-08 18:35:43 UTC

Reddit has nothing compares to U, Brother.

I think { $! } StevenVanSpielmeister can find a small part for Progressive Flo...or her dopplerobot. Nap's step-cousin in waiting...?..

BOYCOTT GEICO.

kelpzoidzl

2013-03-11 02:20:17 UTC

Reddit has nothing compares to U, Brother.

I think { $! } StevenVanSpielmeister can find a small part for Progressive Flo...or her dopplerobot. Nap's step-cousin in waiting...?..

BOYCOTT GEICO.

I'm to tired to know the step uncle. Who is the step uunncle?

MickeyMoop

2013-03-11 13:49:15 UTC

On Mar 8, 11:35 am, MickeyMoop keened over John Patrick Shanley's THE DARKNESS OF AN IRISH MORNING;

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 12:15:40 AM UTC-5, Bodhikelpzoidzl

I'm to tired to know the step uncle. Who is the step uunncle?

"We got out and Anthony led me around back to a graveyard. The rain was falling at a good rate, but he seemed not to notice. He had on some kind of threadbare field jacket. I followed him until he stopped at a substantial forbidding Victorian tombstone that looked like the door to rot and doom. It was engraved with my name: SHANLEY. I felt the letters like a verdict I would not survive. This was my grandparents' resting place.

"He invited me to kneel down in the rain and pray, and did so himself. On my own, this would not have been my first instinct. We knelt side by side, on black gravel, praying before a black stone that looked strangely like the slab in '2001:A Space Odyssey.' I don't know what I prayed for or to. It may have been for an umbrella. I had never met my grandparents, so I had no image or emotional connection to draw on. But kneeling there in the rain, I felt a bond with something dreadful and grand, and I had this thought: These are my people."
NY TIMES, 8 March 2013, John Patrick Shanley

kelpzoidzl

2013-03-11 19:56:50 UTC

On Mar 8, 11:35 am, MickeyMoop keened over John Patrick Shanley's THE DARKNESS OF AN IRISH MORNING;

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 12:15:40 AM UTC-5, Bodhikelpzoidzl

I'm to tired to know the step uncle. Who is the step uunncle?

"We got out and Anthony led me around back to a graveyard. The rain was falling at a good rate, but he seemed not to notice. He had on some kind of threadbare field jacket. I followed him until he stopped at a substantial forbidding Victorian tombstone that looked like the door to rot and doom. It was engraved with my name: SHANLEY. I felt the letters like a verdict I would not survive. This was my grandparents' resting place.
"He invited me to kneel down in the rain and pray, and did so himself. On my own, this would not have been my first instinct. We knelt side by side, on black gravel, praying before a black stone that looked strangely like the slab in '2001:A Space Odyssey.' I don't know what I prayed for or to. It may have been for an umbrella. I had never met my grandparents, so I had no image or emotional connection to draw on. But kneeling there in the rain, I felt a bond with something dreadful and grand, and I had this thought: These are my people."
NY TIMES, 8 March 2013, John Patrick Shanley

"I'm not arguing that with you"- Shanley Katrick

kelpzoidzl

2015-04-02 22:18:56 UTC

Three guys go into a bar....Bill, Paulo and an Irishman of many names.

Paulo: Is this a gay bar, I don't see any women?

Bill: No, this is the Gold Room where they discuss gold market fluctuations

Irishman: They are Gay but do not know it and you are obviously a fascist.

Customer 1: I'm thinking their are alot of Jews in here.
Customer 2: oh shut up!

Customer 3: What makes you think that?

Bartender: Can't you see this is all projection? I know this, because I have always been the bartender

Yelps

2006-08-13 04:42:26 UTC

There is another factor which I haven't seen mentioned here regarding EWS.
The location of the Secret Ceremony, on Long Island.
This is most assuredly meant to be the house of once Govenor of New York,
Averill Harriman.

For a chunk of my childhood I lived right down the street from that estate,
in Sands Point Long Island and many times as a 7-11 year old, 1954-1959,
stood in that imposing driveway in front of the security gate wondering
what went on inside there. (not the same one in the film of course--much
larger actually)

I am not going to go into details of what has been said about Harriman, in
realtion to the Secret Societies and his politcal connections, but I am sure
SK was WELL aware of all of it.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 05:16:25 UTC

Post by Yelps
There is another factor which I haven't seen mentioned here regarding EWS.
The location of the Secret Ceremony, on Long Island.
This is most assuredly meant to be the house of once Govenor of New York,
Averill Harriman.
For a chunk of my childhood I lived right down the street from that estate,
in Sands Point Long Island and many times as a 7-11 year old, 1954-1959,
stood in that imposing driveway in front of the security gate wondering
what went on inside there. (not the same one in the film of course--much
larger actually)
I am not going to go into details of what has been said about Harriman, in
realtion to the Secret Societies and his politcal connections, but I am sure
SK was WELL aware of all of it.
dc

Yelps

2006-08-13 05:26:20 UTC

http://youtu.be/zOgn65Dh9Zo

lol.. Ok I won.

dc

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 06:09:13 UTC

http://youtu.be/zOgn65Dh9Zo

lol.. Ok I won.
dc

Loading Image...

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 06:14:22 UTC

http://youtu.be/zOgn65Dh9Zo

lol.. Ok I won.
dc

http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/burncare.jpg

connie chung remix

hey it's kubrick related

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 06:24:09 UTC

http://youtu.be/zOgn65Dh9Zo

lol.. Ok I won.
dc

http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/burncare.jpg

connie chung remix
http://youtu.be/Gwr5IUY1FYM
hey it's kubrick related

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-13 06:36:23 UTC

Post by Yelps
There is another factor which I haven't seen mentioned here regarding
EWS.
The location of the Secret Ceremony, on Long Island.
This is most assuredly meant to be the house of once Govenor of New York,
Averill Harriman.
For a chunk of my childhood I lived right down the street from that
estate,
in Sands Point Long Island and many times as a 7-11 year old, 1954-1959,
stood in that imposing driveway in front of the security gate wondering
what went on inside there. (not the same one in the film of course--much
larger actually)
I am not going to go into details of what has been said about Harriman,
in
realtion to the Secret Societies and his politcal connections, but I am
sure
SK was WELL aware of all of it.
dc

http://youtu.be/zOgn65Dh9Zo

lol.. Ok I won.
dc

http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/burncare.jpg

connie chung remix
http://youtu.be/Gwr5IUY1FYM
hey it's kubrick related

http://youtu.be/Lp3Hbecptd8

CNN - Dumb reporter

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-19 09:38:16 UTC

Now I think there were two places of conspiratorial re-known in the area.

This is a classic thread to revisit.

MickeyMoop

2013-02-19 14:42:43 UTC

ROLL OUT THOSE LAZY HAZY CRAZY THREADS OF SUMMER

Now I think there were two places of conspiratorial re-known in the area.
This is a classic thread to revisit.

There are many threads in the Guardian of O'AM of K that AMever and ever; let us study this One and davenate ulalumishly. uND AT SOme Omegapoint the Redditeers will bleed into this Room and its sacred Treasured Commode behind which Matt Branson O'Bullington the Chadzworthy is expounding upon cute little girls and their 4-F brother flouncing up and down the Grand Concourse of Life.

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-20 02:16:08 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-21 08:50:11 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

Removed Wild Man Reid's retitled soap opera character reference,

MickeyMoop

2013-02-21 14:36:26 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

Removed Wild Man Reid's retitled soap opera character reference,

Reid is a soldier of AMK. Honor him....and his not-so-aspected twin cousin Ernesto...

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-22 09:20:24 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

Removed Wild Man Reid's retitled soap opera character reference,

Reid is a soldier of AMK. Honor him....and his not-so-aspected twin cousin Ernesto...

True enough,

you mean Thread-Title-Changer-Watches-Soaps-Makes Fun of Buffy's nose-
hates Zhivago and EWS-only likes 2001- Reid?

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-22 09:29:32 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

Removed Wild Man Reid's retitled soap opera character reference,

Reid is a soldier of AMK. Honor him....and his not-so-aspected twin cousin Ernesto...

True enough,
you mean Thread-Title-Changer-Watches-Soaps-Makes Fun of Buffy's nose-
hates Zhivago and EWS-only likes 2001- Reid?

If there is a Kubrickian woman of quality around Lolita's age best to
stay away.

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-22 09:39:17 UTC

Then the table must be set for the young wippersnappers. Ala Rocky's birthday party. Add pecans to Eddy's gastronomy entrails.

Removed Wild Man Reid's retitled soap opera character reference,

Reid is a soldier of AMK. Honor him....and his not-so-aspected twin cousin Ernesto...

True enough,
you mean Thread-Title-Changer-Watches-Soaps-Makes Fun of Buffy's nose-
hates Zhivago and EWS-only likes 2001- Reid?

If there is a Kubrickian woman of quality around Lolita's age best to
stay away.

myriadsmallcreature

2013-02-26 20:38:51 UTC

How are you able to reply to a six-year old post?

kelpzoidzl

2013-02-26 22:45:04 UTC

On Feb 26, 12:38 pm, myriadsmallcreature

Post by myriadsmallcreature
How are you able to reply to a six-year old post?

It has to be done in the "New" Google Groups which I hate except for a
few new features like this.

myriadsmallcreature

2013-02-28 18:23:40 UTC

Post by kelpzoidzl
On Feb 26, 12:38 pm, myriadsmallcreature

Post by myriadsmallcreature
How are you able to reply to a six-year old post?

It has to be done in the "New" Google Groups which I hate except for a
few new features like this.

Thanks. I think I'll have a talk with Douglas Adams.

kelpzoidzl

2013-03-01 02:44:02 UTC

Post by myriadsmallcreature

On Feb 28, 10:23 am, myriadsmallcreature

Post by kelpzoidzl
On Feb 26, 12:38 pm, myriadsmallcreature

Post by myriadsmallcreature
How are you able to reply to a six-year old post?

It has to be done in the "New" Google Groups which I hate except for a
few new features like this.

Thanks. I think I'll have a talk with Douglas Adams.

Not sure but you might have to find old posts of your own...same
account...to get a reply button to dig out old threads
Only triedit this once but MM s been doing it earlier.

MickeyMoop

2013-03-01 15:15:39 UTC

Post by myriadsmallcreature

Post by kelpzoidzl
On Feb 28, 10:23 am, myriadsmallcreature

Post by kelpzoidzl
On Feb 26, 12:38 pm, myriadsmallcreature

HIT 'SEARCH FOR TOPICS' und the Great and Powerful Bringle of Gooz will regurgitate LACAN, PUERILITY OF ESSENCE, COME BACK geoff, Marilyn Monroe and Dr. Gottlieberschwanz,

Post by myriadsmallcreature

Post by myriadsmallcreature
How are you able to reply to a six-year old post?

It has to be done in the "New" Google Groups which I hate except for a
few new features like this.

Thanks. I think I'll have a talk with Douglas Adams.

Not sure but you might have to find old posts of your own...same
account...to get a reply button to dig out old threads
Only triedit this once but MM s been doing it earlier.

Yelps

2006-08-12 07:02:59 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Yes, this was possible because the references to homosexuality are as
sly as possible,

I think the gaybashing incident on the street was anything other than
sly. Also Alan Cummings was a little less than subtle. Really, your
tactics are showing Paulo, give it up!

I Understand you POV but I'm not being "paranoid" about it. I am just
pointing out that i think you have investing to much in this idea Bill is
gay and you are uncharacterisitcally allowing there to be any other answer.
I have already proven that the End of the Rainbow thing come from the Secret
Society ideation which predates by many thousands of years, the Gay Pride
logo.

As far as Cruise goes. It's just you projecting.

dc

Yelps

2006-08-12 07:06:13 UTC

Post by Lord Bullingdon
Yes, this was possible because the references to homosexuality are as
sly as possible,

I think the gaybashing incident on the street was anything other than
sly. Also Alan Cummings was a little less than subtle. Really, your
tactics are showing Paulo, give it up!

I Understand your POV, and I'm not being "paranoid" about it. I am just
pointing out that I think you have been investing to much in this idea
that Bill is gay and you are uncharacterisitcally NOT allowing there to
be any other answer.
I have already proven that the End of the Rainbow thing come from the
Secret Society ideation which predates by many thousands of years, the Gay
Pride logo.
As far as Cruise goes. It's just you projecting. Usually you are more
openminded, this time you are way off.
dc

Harry Bailey

2006-08-13 01:42:20 UTC

Post by Yelps
I Understand you POV but I'm not being "paranoid" about it.

Bullanoid has been pathologically paranoid about his own closet
hererosexuality on this newsgroup for years, or hasn't anyone yet
noticed?

Post by Yelps
I am just
pointing out that i think you have investing to much in this idea Bill is
gay

Cruise is just a closet actor.

Post by Yelps
As far as Cruise goes. It's just you projecting.

Yup.

Lord Bullingdon

2006-08-13 02:28:37 UTC

Oh no, not Harry Bailey again! I thought he was gone....

:(

L.B.

Matthew Dickinson

2006-08-12 02:18:06 UTC

Post by Matthew Dickinson
Wasn't the whole "don't you want to go where the rainbow ends" thing
something to do with the Noahide commandments?

I agree, it's meant these things, but so much of the movie of course
also has that ring of symbolism and "hidden meaning"...... which I kind
of find obnoxious, but I digress.

Post by ichorwhip
Some may take the rainbow at its more obscure mythological connotations
having to do with the connection between heaven and earth etcetera.
Some others might take the homoerotic route since rainbows have come to
symbolize gay pride.
Of course the symbolic use of color throughout EWS can be signified by
the rainbow as well. In this sense it's a hint of sorts.

Probably the one scene in the movie where there's no rainbows is with
Alan Cummings.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
They're often called the
rainbow laws. The 7 binding laws for all peoples, Jew and gentile.

I think it just refers to gentiles when you're talking rainbows.

Binding to everyone! The rest of the laws of the 613 in the torah are
meant specifically for Jews.

No, I'm not trying to get into speculations about whether Kubrick had
much interest in the Bible and Judaic tradition. I do know he liked
Kieslowski's movie about the ten commandments and wrote an introduction
in that book of screenplays, though. I try to view a movie as a
thing-in-itself, and wonder about its meaning on its own merits and not
on the biography of the artist.

Post by Matthew Dickinson
I
thought the rainbow symbolism had something to do with that, since the
movie is about a Jewish character who isn't really a Jew,

You mean like an ironic hearkening back to "Traumnovelle?"

To some extent I guess it was just a modernization, since even if Tom
Cruise had played a Jewish character, calling him a kike on a NY
street like that would be hard to believe; the sociology needed an
update. Again I don't think either case, in the book or in the movie,
is about the bullies carrying much about Jewishness or homosexuality --
I don't think it was about antisemitism or homophobia. Just bullying.
Like what we've done to Lord Bullingdon a lot here.

Post by ichorwhip
It makes
more sense for the character to be a gentile adhering to Noahide law
within the reference I think.

Yes

Post by ichorwhip
One thing I have always failed to
understand is that if you accept the great deluge as fact on faith or
otherwise (as the big three religions do), then you and everybody else
in the world are descendants of Noah, the only living family spared and
left by God. By extension, doesn't that make everybody on earth
Jewish? We can all stop fighting now! Hallelujah, Hosanna, Yallah and
so forth.... Either that or every conflict on earth is actually a
civil war.

We're all one family tree. The jews are more distinct by tradition than
by blood. The jewish tradition calls for separation from non-Jews, but
not due to a belief in superiority. It says in the Bible, in the books
of Moses: "I have called you to be a separate people unto me." "You are
not to go awhoring after the idols of the nations." etc , and this
separation started with Abraham, after Noah.

That's true. Personally I respect non-proselytizers.

yes